You are exactly right ozziepost. I remember thinking when I was young that if the WT reasoning about certain things (such as being persecuted, or rapid growth in numbers, being proof of God's blessing) were applied to the Mormons, then it would mean the Mormon religion was chosen by God. I think that even before I got baptized I often noticed the illogical thinking of the WT. I wish I had used that realization of the WT to decide not to become baptized as a JW.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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41
Fascinating Quotations of The Faithful Slave
by Vanderhoven7 indo you have any amazing quotations that have been produced by the faithful slave over the years?.
remember it's important that we should learn to love and value truth for it’s own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomever presented.
a truth presented by the faithful slave himself is just as true as a truth stated by god.. share some of those amazing quotations that have fascinated you.
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Disillusioned JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Jeffro, I like your explanation, especially that you brought in verse 39 and that you say it shows that "the parousia is likened to the flood itself". But how can we get Fisherman and others to interpret/understand that way? Is what we said enough, or is more needed?
Br. Charles Taze Russell and thus his WT organization got it wrong. How sad. Their influence also caused me to have it wrong for so long.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Jeffro, how do you explain the wording of "so the parousia of the Son of man will be ... as they were in those days before the flood" in the quote Fisherman made of Matthew 24:37-38? Perhaps we should focus on the "as they were" part to say it is about how the timing will be unexpected. Perhaps we should also emphasize that in the 1st century the word parousia also had the technical meaning of the coming/arrival or visit of a king or emperor (a meaning which the WT has acknowledged did exist). Most words have more than one meaning, and the context needs to be considered to determine what the meaning is in a specific incidence.
The technical meaning also includes what takes place visually when the king arrives, and the biblical Jesus said people will see "the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven" and that people "will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven" [Matthew 24:30 (1984 NWT)]. Furthermore, the disciples asked what would would be the "sign of your [Jesus'] parousia" [see Matthew 24:3] and thus they might have meant parousia in the technical sense (including what people will see when they look at what is around Jesus), instead of in the sense that the WT uses it.
For documentation, see the posts made by Leolaia 14 years ago at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/156634/watchtower-comments-generation-change-featuring-leolaia?page=19 . See also page 1577 in the first sentence of the last paragraph of section 5B of the Appendix of the 1984 Reference edition of the NWT.
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41
Fascinating Quotations of The Faithful Slave
by Vanderhoven7 indo you have any amazing quotations that have been produced by the faithful slave over the years?.
remember it's important that we should learn to love and value truth for it’s own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomever presented.
a truth presented by the faithful slave himself is just as true as a truth stated by god.. share some of those amazing quotations that have fascinated you.
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7, I think that the words "To do so would bring" and "disfellowship" should also be underlined, for emphasis.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Oops. You are right Jeffro, I should have address the comment to scholar instead. I am glad though that you got a good laugh. -
540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Hi Jeffro. I intend to reply to your most recent post to me on another day.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Jeffro regarding your advice to me that I "... should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publication", I have studied many of their publications. I was raised as a JW from infancy, enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School at age 8, became baptized at age 15, became a ministerial servant at age 19 (shortly after I began attending college), became a regular pioneer at just before age 22 (a few months before receiving my Bachelor Science of Degree in Business Administration), and eventually gave some public talks. But during that long time period I did not "... find Bible Study a joyful experience". Furthermore, from teen years onward I noticed that the WT on numerous times changed their teachings, resulting in them declaring their abandoned teachings as false, though previously saying that JWs could not speak against those teachings without being considered an apostate and thus shunned by JWs.
A number of times while I was an JW I noticed that some of WT's then current teachings were problematic and that much of their reasoning is illogical, misleading, and highly manipulative, but because I was baptized by them and felt pressured to remain an active JW, I pushed to the back of my mind the problems I saw regarding some WT teachings. Instead of Bible study, I wanted to spend my time in secular pursuits, such as studying science and inventions and trying to invent something myself, and trying to make a lot of money in the stock market. Eventually starting in 1995 I started seeing major problems with some core teachings of the WT (including their claim of the governing body being anointed by Jehovah and God) and thus in about 2001 I stopped being active as a JW and began independent study of the Bible. I also began collecting very old WT books (including ones by Rutherford an Russell) and began seeing to a great extent what they reveal about the degree of credibility of the WT's claim of being chosen by Jehovah God as his instrument and his channel of communication.
During my independent study I started enjoying Bible study because I was free to study about the Bible what I wanted, and the way I wanted, and was free to reject teachings which seemed false to me. But after I started seeing numerous major problems with even the Bible, after I discovered that biological evolution is true and that there never was a global flood on Earth, and after I discovered that Jehovah God and a supernatural Jesus Christ are both unreal, I began loosing my joy in studying the Bible. I am thus now at the point where I consider ceasing all study of the Bible, but my desire to convince others to become atheistic naturalists compels me to continuing studying the Bible (so I can reveal problems of the Bible effectively to others). I am trying to ween myself from studying the Bible, much as I have mostly weened myself from studying WT literature.
However, very recently by studying some old WT very carefully I can now see and understand why the WT's major writers (including Rutherford and Franz) concluded what they did on certain matters. As a result some of what they wrote seem much more strongly supported than what I had concluded before, but those teachings still seem to have major problems. For example, the idea that Christ is has been king (invisibly) since 1914 C.E. still seems to be false.
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103
Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
An influential commentary agrees with something I said on pages two and three of this topic thread. On page two I said "... Jesus (by way of his angel?) delivered God's message of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" to John." Sea Breeze on the same page quoted my words as 'Jesus delivered God's message of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" to John', leaving out the portion which said "(by way of his angel?)". He then said "How could you possibly come up with that conclusion with a plain literal reading of scripture?" In reply I said on page three of this topic thread that Revelation 1:1-2 say "... that God (the Father) sent a revelation about Jesus to Jesus, that Jesus in turn sent it "by His angel" to John the servant of Jesus." Today I learned that both the "Augmented Third Edition" and the "Fully Revised Fourth Edition" of The New Oxford Annotated Bible edition of the NRSV with the Apocrypha (the latter being copyright 2010), very influential commentaries, agree with what I said. Regarding Revelation 1:1-2 they both say the following.
"This revelation came from God through Jesus Christ and was communicated to John by an angel (referred to again in 22.16)." That is the same point I made, except the commentary uses the phrase "through Jesus" instead of "Jesus delivered" or "Jesus sent". Revelation 22:16 (NRSV) says "It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches."
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: The above cited article about 29 AD - 33 CE was authored by Andreas Köstenberger instead of Justin Taylor, but Justin Taylor shares the same view regarding the dates.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_J._K%C3%B6stenberger, Andreas Johannes Köstenberger is an evangelical scholar and is Research Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology and founding director of the Center for Biblical Studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.[1][2] See also https://www.mbts.edu/about/faculty/andreas-kostenberger/ .
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Hi Jeffro, in some of my mine posts I said "about the year 30 C.E." - not "in the year 30 C.E." - for when I thought Jews (using calculations based upon the book of Daniel) were looking the Messiah and when Jesus began his ministry. That is because I didn't know the precise time period when the Jews were looking for the Messiah based upon calculations of Daniel (assuming the WT's claim was correct), and because I also didn't remember for certain the precise year (whether calculated by the WT or by various non-JW scholars - and scholars disagree as to what year Jesus began his ministry) began. It doesn't matter to me if the year was 26 C.E. or 30 CE., since to me that 4 year difference is minor compared to a time period of 490 years. It also doesn't matter to me since I thought that many of the Jews making the calculations might not have known what the precise year was for the start of 490 year time period.
I later looked it up in the first edition of the WT's Insight book and I noticed it said Jesus began his ministry in the fall of 29 C.E. - not in 30 C.E. Since you said 26 C.E. is the correct year last night I searched on the internet to see if a number of scholars say 30 C.E. and if a number of others say 26 C.E. It appears that most in our day say 26 C.E., but that some in our day say 30 C.E., and that some say 29 CE. Others say some other year.At https://cbs.mbts.edu/2020/04/08/april-3-ad-33-why-we-believe-we-can-know-the-exact-date-jesus-died/ Justin Taylor says that Jesus began his ministry in 29 (AD) C.E.and he states his reasons for that view, while acknowledging that most scholars say Jesus died in 30 AD (C.E.) instead of 33 AD (C.E). He is a Southern Baptist and executive vice president and publisher for books at Crossway, a major publisher of Christian books. Yet despite being such he came up with the same year for the start of Jesus' ministry as did the WT. He says that Jesus died on Nisan 15, AD 33 and that the date is also Friday, April 3. The WT says virtually the same thing, for it says that Jesus died on Friday (at about 3:00 PM), Nisan 14, 33 C.E. in the spring (see first edition of the Insight book).
Regarding whether the book of Daniel was written around 164 B.C.E or centuries earlier, I have read arguments for both time periods. To me both dates have strong arguments for them, and weaknesses for them. It seems that the only ones arguing for the 6th century date are those Christians who believe the entire Bible is inspired by God and true in all of its teachings. In contrast it seems that those scholars who teach a date of about 164 B.C.E. (I am not saying that precise year, but rather within 5 to 10 years of that year) consist of atheists and theologically liberal Christians (and maybe some theologically liberal Jews) who believe no human has the power (even with help from God) to make accurate detailed predictions hundreds of years in advance.
I am an atheist (and thus I believe there is no such thing as divine inspiration) and as a result of my research I lean towards the belief that the book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C.E (about the year 164 B.C.E.), but I am not certain it was written then. Furthermore, I think that the second kingdom referred to in Daniel chapter two is Media-Persia instead of Media; that the third kingdom referred to is Greece (and its subsequent break up, in stages, into the the Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms) instead of Persia; and that the fourth kingdom is Rome (whether in the form of the Republic of Rome, the Roman Empire, or a combination of both).
I found one Jewish religious commentary on the Hebrew Scriptures which can be read online in English (on the www.chabad.org website). That commentary is by Jewish scholar Rashi and was written in the middle ages, but I read a modern English translation of it. In regards to the 70 weeks prophecy it said that it extended to the time in which Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans under general Titus. According to https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199840731/obo-9780199840731-0128.xml Rashi was born in 1040 C.E. and died in 1106 C.E That web page says Rashi "was the single most influential Jewish Bible commentator of the Middle Ages." It also says the following. "He is certainly a centrally important figure in the history of Jewish biblical interpretation, and an argument can be made for his importance in the history of Christian biblical interpretation as well."
In part, the English translation of Rashi's commentary says the following regarding Daniel chapter 9 (at https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16492/jewish/Chapter-9.htm ). "the anointed one will be cut off: Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.
... to terminate the transgression and to end sin: so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah. The number of seventy weeks is four hundred and ninety years. The Babylonian exile was seventy [years] and the Second Temple stood four hundred and twenty [years]."
The various commentaries I read disagree with each other in regards to various particulars and it is very hard (in regards to various particulars) to determine the correct meaning of a number of scripture passages. Studying the Bible is thus wearisome to my mind.